WELCOME!!!
Welcome to my blog!
I am a graduate of the yeshiva system. I daven with a minyan 3 times daily, I try my best to be courteous, well-mannered and even-tempered, I learn Torah every day, I almost never use any objectionable language, I am involved in all sorts of chessed and kiruv, I am constantly working on myself and looking to grow, and have a strong commitment to serving H-shem to the best of my abilities. Overall, I try my best to encompass all that I believe a ben-torah should be... yet I am often viewed as a misfit by many members of the Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva community.
Why?
I wear colored shirts, attend a rigorous graduate school program, read the newspaper, follow current events, greet people in the street, and keep an open mind.
Over the years, I have had a very hard time coming to terms with the increasing emphasis that the Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva world has placed on external nuances. In their attempt to make a strong shift to what they perceive as being "the right" or "frummer", it seems as if the Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva world has gotten caught up in a few meaningless details and lost sight of more important things and the "big-picture".
Why has the yeshiva world gotten so caught up in a few meaningless details while neglecting some of our most basic and important principles and values?
Should a guy who only wears starched white shirts and dress pants but isn't respectful to others be held in higher regard then someone who always conducts himself like a true gentleman, but does not confine himself to wearing only white shirts during the week?
Should one who dons a black hat but contaminates his daily discourse with swear-words and profanities be considered more "frum" than someone who does not own a black hat but never utters an inappropriate word?
Is it always better for EVERYONE to enroll in yeshiva full-time (full-time usually means 3 full sedarim a day), rather than go to school &/or pursue a career while being "koveiah itim"?
In creating this blog, I hope to share and receive feedback on my frustration with a Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva system and world that seems to be increasingly emphasizing external display over internal sincerity.
I am a graduate of the yeshiva system. I daven with a minyan 3 times daily, I try my best to be courteous, well-mannered and even-tempered, I learn Torah every day, I almost never use any objectionable language, I am involved in all sorts of chessed and kiruv, I am constantly working on myself and looking to grow, and have a strong commitment to serving H-shem to the best of my abilities. Overall, I try my best to encompass all that I believe a ben-torah should be... yet I am often viewed as a misfit by many members of the Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva community.
Why?
I wear colored shirts, attend a rigorous graduate school program, read the newspaper, follow current events, greet people in the street, and keep an open mind.
Over the years, I have had a very hard time coming to terms with the increasing emphasis that the Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva world has placed on external nuances. In their attempt to make a strong shift to what they perceive as being "the right" or "frummer", it seems as if the Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva world has gotten caught up in a few meaningless details and lost sight of more important things and the "big-picture".
Why has the yeshiva world gotten so caught up in a few meaningless details while neglecting some of our most basic and important principles and values?
Should a guy who only wears starched white shirts and dress pants but isn't respectful to others be held in higher regard then someone who always conducts himself like a true gentleman, but does not confine himself to wearing only white shirts during the week?
Should one who dons a black hat but contaminates his daily discourse with swear-words and profanities be considered more "frum" than someone who does not own a black hat but never utters an inappropriate word?
Is it always better for EVERYONE to enroll in yeshiva full-time (full-time usually means 3 full sedarim a day), rather than go to school &/or pursue a career while being "koveiah itim"?
In creating this blog, I hope to share and receive feedback on my frustration with a Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva system and world that seems to be increasingly emphasizing external display over internal sincerity.
posted by The Unorthodox Yeshiva Guy at 11:29 AM
69 Comments:
Welcome to the blog world. As they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery! I am flattered to have you join the blogworld with a blog dedicated to similar thought process as my own blog. I am sure you decided to start this blog without ever seeing mine, but nonetheless I am flattered.
I look forward to your posts and something tells me we will agree with each other more often than not!
Good luck to you!
I admire your strength and will to be a ben Torah despite the frustration from others.
hey!
i hear your frustration, and that of the million other frum brooklyn/lakewood bloggers ive come across! but i keep wondering, isnt there anything you can do? any of you? It seems that you all suffer in silence, and then unleash on line - anonymously. cant you find eachother? get together? do something about this situation? there definitely seems to be enough of you who ar unhappy with the status quo.. well if you guys learn something from all this blogging, its that you're not alone, and i hope that you'll eventually find a way to consolidate your strengths and make a dent in the system. until then, like lvnsm27 said, your will to remain a ben torah despite the frustration from others is admirable!
Welcome to the blogosphere! As a fellow yeshiva "misfit," I certainly sympathize with your plight. The rightward shift in the yeshiva world bothers me as well, and it's great to see people like you out there. Much hatzlacha!
good luck. I hope this helps you vent..
Eshet Chayil- Easier said than done. Please dont judge our situation until you have been in our shoes ( as I truly hope you never have to be)
Eishet Chayil,
Welcome to my blog! While I do appreciate the time that you took to read my lengthy inauguratory post, the content as well as the patronizing connotation of your comment lead me to believe that your words are merely a negative knee-jerk reaction to my post.
Firstly, I am sorry to learn that you have repeatedly taken the stance of 'put-up or move out'. Such an attitude is counterproductive; while it may theoretically serve as a potentially easier way out for some individuals, it is usually not a realistic option and ultimately just exacerbates the underlying problem; it is therefore not consistent with the goals of this blog.
In my post, I specifically emphasize that my gripe is with those elements of Brooklyn/Lakewood society that choose to stress certain trivial "external displays" over some far-more-important fundamental traits like good manners. Such external displays as the white shirt, when done "l'shma" can be an effective means through which to reach an important end. However, in the case of the Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva world these external displays have become virtually mandatory, and therefore, are often not l'shma. As a direct consequence, such external displays as the white shirt and black hat lose much of their meaning, and hence, their ability to serve as an effective means through which to achieve those ends; they just become a mere practice of "going through the motions".
I do not have any trouble with the white shirts and black pants themselves; as I mentioned before, when done l'shma, such external displays can serve as a great vehicle through which to achieve some great benefits. I do have a problem however, with those superficial elements of the Brooklyn/Lakewood yeshiva world that taint the value and purpose of wearing such items through their insistence on making them mandatory through societal pressure.
Jewboy, lakewood venter, lvsn27, anonym00kie, Isaac Kaplan, and Rafi G, and Rachel En...
Welcome, and thanks for the support!
I hope to see you all back here often!
-TUYG
It's about time! There are serious problems with the Yeshiva world, and I am glad that you are writing about them. Case in point: My son has a good friend who is Lubavitch and very intelligent.Because he hadn't studied English, math & science in school (he went to a 'frum' yeshiva day school), nor did he learn the Hebrew language - he failed three exams needed to enlist in the IDF (it's a long story). He realized then that he was ill-prepared to function in today's world, and promptly (after proving himself and excelling in Tzahal)started studying the courses he needed in order to bring him up to high school level, let alone college! He went on to get his BA in Jewish Studies in college.
You should hear what HE has to say about the yeshiva world. And I am happy to say, he didn't 'throw out the baby with the bathwater' - he returned to being Lubavitch, is married w/ 2 kids, and has several businesses. And he is still studying - now, towards his LSATs!
Rambam was a secular as well as a Torah scholar, as were other sages in Jewish history. There is no need to abandon a Torah life; there is just a need to expand upon it and learn what is necessary to succeed in the world at large. As it is written, "ein Torah bli Derekh Eretz..."(derekh eretz= alivlihood, as well as other meanings).
So, UnOrthodoxYeshivaGuy, keep writing of your experiences, and keep the dialogue going. This IS the correct forum, among others, to do so.
(Hey, I think I'll post this subject on my blog!)
Very good writing, TUYG!
Geshmaker- It amazes me that you claim to be bored of this blog and ones like it, yet you continue to frequent them and take the time to comment.
If you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Welcome to the blogasphere!!!
You sound like an amazing guy!
Welcome! Some nuanced commentary on the Yeshiva world (indeed an all religious contexts of Judaism) is direly needed. Criticism is always better, and more constructive, when it comes from a m'kom ahava.
Just wondering, when did the whole white shirt thing start? It's a recent innovation, is it not?
I can definitely relate to some of the issues you posted. I think we all have to be mechazek each other, demand more of ourselves, and ultimately do what we can to be the best we can possibly be.
I have one point:
Is it always better for EVERYONE to enroll in yeshiva full-time (full-time usually means 3 full sedarim a day), rather than go to school &/or pursue a career while being "koveiah itim"?
My answer is an emphatic yes. We are doing the best we can to provide for our familites--but we still must be OISEK b'Torah. There is a difference between that and merely setting aside time. It has to demand serious involvement.
I went through an Ivy Law School, and do well as an attorney, but I never had to change the color of my shirt. Why is it that others decide to do it? Is it to mix in better with the crowd (I come in with a suit every day, so it does not matter by me)? I think that once you wear a yarlmuka, and refuse to shake a woman's hand, you won't blend much in with the a blue shirt.
But that's just my view.
Looks like I was the last to find this blog... where have you been hiding :-)
you have some very interesting things to say. I relate and look forward to your future posts. I warmly welcome you and wish you luck with your new blog!
Geshmaker, Lady-light, Kasamba, Bloom, Nemo, Frumgirl, and Anonymous: Welcome, and thanks for the encouragement!!!
Geshmaker: This blog is not even three days old; please don't write me off just yet...
while you may have found my first post to be somewhat generic, I do not plan on restricting the focus of my posts exclusively on the issues that I have touched upon in my opening post; It is my hope that you will find some of my future posts both new and refreshing!
--Stay Tuned!
(I specifically listed an email address in my profile so as to encourage people to email me comments and suggestions... please do not hesitate!)
Nemo: yes, over the past 7-10 years.
Anonymous: Thanks for stopping by and commenting! Your opening statement/paragraph is a good one. However, I am somewhat confused by the rest of your comments:
1)If you are absolutely emphatic in stating that it is always better for EVERYONE to enroll in yeshiva full-time (full-time usually means 3 full sedarim a day) rather than go to school &/or pursue a career while being "koveiah itim".......... then how/why did you attend an Ivy League Law School? (These points seem to contradict.)
2)How are the questions that you ask, and the point that you make in your last paragraph relevant to anything that I have posted on this blog?
To all anonymous people:
If you do not have or do not wish to use an official blog identity, I would be most appreciative if you would please be so kind as to consistently publish your comments as a select "other" identity for the purposes of this blog... this will help everyone distinguish one commenter from the next.
Thank you very much!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
1)If you are absolutely emphatic in stating that it is always better for EVERYONE to enroll in yeshiva full-time (full-time usually means 3 full sedarim a day) rather than go to school &/or pursue a career while being "koveiah itim".......... then how/why did you attend an Ivy League Law School? (These points seem to contradict.)
You ask a fair question. I was writing about what is optimal. It would be great if I did not have to support my familiy and learn as much as humanly possible--which I did. Once it became clear that I had to support my family, however, I did what I thought was honorable, that is, I found myself a heiche timtzeh, so to speak, to make good money relatively quickly, without resorting to becoming another "hocker" or demanding money from my family. I do not believe speculating in real state is healthy because it encourages a gambling-like state of mind, and prevents one from supporting his family for far too long. I thought a profession the easiest way to solve this problem. And, for me, it did. I still learn a lot more than a mere one or two hours a day, and, Baruch Hashem, my family is supported without worry.
I apologize for raising issues that may not have appeared on your post. I was venting from work.
I wish you hatzlacha on your new blog.
I should add that I meant that I did not think it right to demand money from family, when it was obvious they could not longer do it.
Yonah:
Upon realizing that you had to support your family family, you took a very responsible and well-thought-out course of action. The path you chose is indeed very honorable, and you have my highest praises!
You did not think it right to demand money from your family when it was obvious they could no longer support you, so you went and pursued a challenging yet realistic path to financial self-sufficiency; this is highly commendable!
Men like yourself ought to be held up on pedestals for all yeshiva guys to see and emulate! Yeshivas and rabbeim should encourage all talmidim to strive to be as considerate and responsible as you.
While one might argue that under the ideal circumstances a man who could learn all day should be encouraged to do so, it just seems wrong and irresponsible for someone to "learn fulltime” when they are either intellectually or emotionally incapable of putting in fulltime hours, &/or if they pose an overwhelming financial burden on others.
(I find it extremely difficult for anyone to justify those people who take the title of "kollel yunger leight" and do not actually put in the proper “learning” in terms of quantity &/or quality. These people are the source of those resentful “baal habaatim” who refer to some “kollel guys” as moochers and leeches)
Thanks again for responding to my post and comments! I hope to hear from you again!
-TUYG
PS. Please email me Yonah... I would like to discuss a few more details from your comments with you, but would prefer to do so outside the context of this particular post.
You can email me at: theunorthdoxyeshivaguy@gmail.com
You are too kind. Thank you.
I sent you something, but my email was returned by mailerdeamon. I don't know why, sorry.
Yonah,
Go to "View My Complete Profile" and use the email link there.
Thanks!
I find it very interesting that a graduate of an ivy league law school has enough time in his day surf the web and learn for more way than the average 2 hours each day and make a lot of money (presumably in a law firm.
Oh Well!!!!
Off to night seder,
Learner
It goes a step further. Call for shidduchim about *any* random guy and he is 'the best learner'. How can that possibly be so? Is that fair to the real learners?
Ok, ok stop nagging me. Lol.. So lil time, so many blogs.
Seriously, this is a very well written blog. The main problem is that no girl going thru a Shadchan/ official channels wants to "get a name" that she is looking for "such a boy", even though he maybe and usually is a thousand times better then the BMG lowlife. So you sort of have to VERY DISCREETLY meet a kindred spirit from the opposite gender thru "unofficial channels" ..
The main thing is be true to yourself ...
Frumgirl,
Unfortunately, the shidduch research situation has reached a point where exaggeration is the norm...
I personally have suffered more than one "wasted evening" on account of what was probably justified as "well-intentioned" exaggeration.
(exaggeration is really pure and intentional dishonesty if you think about it)
Feel free to email me for more details!
-TUYG
Semgirl:
Welcome to my blog, and thanks for the comment!
-TUYG
A) Ummmm.....Sure, I'll go out with you! LOL
B) Your blog seems like it'll be the male counterpart to mine. Can't wait to see what you have in store.
C) I seriously don't get the white shirt thing. WHO CARES? The fact that it's even discussed shows what our society has come to. Asking if a girl dresses B'Tznius is one thing, but what color a guy's shirt is? Come on!!!
D) Although I've been taught that Kollel is the ideal, and it's something I think about frequently--in the ways of, "Am I being sent on a massive guilt trip?" -learning full time is certainly not for everyone. It's extremely crucial for everyone to be Koveah Itim, but full time is just for those few who can handle it, or those whose fathers in law plunk cars in their driveways and the guys sit around and shmooze all day.
You have to understand..that aside for the Yeshiva world being a religious institution and serving religious needs..it's also serving cultural needs and relates to the masses.
I've come to terms with this and I realize why I might be considered different..and I respect it.
The Chofetz Chaims son once went around selling his father seforim..he came to a Chassidishe community and was terribly harassed. He came back to his father bitter.
Th Chofetz Chaim told him that The Halacha is if there is a Rodef ..someone apptempting to kill another person..and you're chasing after him..and in the process you dmamage someone elses property or item..you're exempt from paying..
The Chofetz Chaim continued..the Chassidim are at the forefront of the fight against Haskala so theyre like the guy chasing the Rodef..if they damage some innocents on the way they're Potur...Appreciate what they're doing..and take your insults with a grain of salt....
David, of course I see and understand your point, it just annoys me that people have to hide their individuality. What does that really say about the system?
Ultimately only Hashem should judge us. And something tells me that a colored shirt wont be looked down upon in heaven.
Also, that chassidish outlook angers me to the core. What happened to thou shall not kill... what happened to if you save one life it is as if you saved a world entire?
I think heaven *would* look down at that outlook, to me thats sinful.
FG...
Ok..I don't think I was clear enough...
It's more of a cultural issue then a religios one.
You would not be a Religious if there was no Religious Jewish Culture... Sometimes the trappings of that culture seem frivolous but they play an important role..
I think we can appreciate this... and not let it bug us....as long as we're comfortable in our own skin....
David, it doesnt bug me as it doesnt affect me but hearing individual accounts of how the system abused people and about children that were misunderstood and mislabeled... lives were ruined this way. It hurts. It should hurt all of us.
FG...
True...It's a shame those that are in charge of our children..cant see things this clearly...
It's absolutely terrible that nowadays, yiddishkeit has come down to labels and externalities.
I was once told by a rebbe of mine, that if two jews were identical in EVERY way, except that one wore a black hat on shabbos and the other didn't, the one with the black hat was "frummer".
What apikurses. I used to ask this rebbe, show me ANY mekor for a black hat.... I'm still waiting.
What happened to bein adam lachavero?? does that no longer apply bizman hazeh?
what happened to being dan a person l'kaf zchus???
I know PLENTY of YU guys that are much more serious, learn more and better, and are most likely "frummer" than guys from the so-called black hat yeshivos.
Al tistakel bakankan. what happened to that? Oh, I forgot, yeshivos don't learn pirkei avos.
Frum Idealist:
Welcome, and thanks for posting your comment!!
I share your senitment, and can definitely relate to your story... I have had many such rabbeim!
-TUYG
Come on TUYG nothing else to say about what DAvid and I were debating? If you wont moderate this cant work. Its your blog. Take control.
There is much truth to what David is saying, and yet I disagree with some of it too. Maybe later I will come back and comment more at length as to my position on this.
Be well.
UO YG: You're right - because it is easier to judge a person based on their hat (or lack thereof), their shirt colour, or their hashkafos, instead of seeing if they know, learn, and live torah.
Cf. tocho kevaro - berachos 28a. If the Amoraim were caught up in these "shtuyot" then we'd never hear of Elazar Ben Azarya.
To an earlier poster: the source for wearing a hat is most probably the gemara in Ein Omdin (Berachos 31a, where they yelled at Rav Huna for walking out with his turban undone... Specifically to have a fedora, see Mishnah Berurah on Orach Chaim 91, se'if kattan 11... though a careful reading of the siman seems to indicate that this may very well be a minhag.
Gavi:
Welcome to my blog, and thanks for commenting!
I would appreciate it if you would please email me. You made some good points in your comments that I would like to discuss with you, but I prefer to do outside the context of this blog.
Thank you very much!
-TUYG
PS. You can find my email address in my user profile.
Hey kido, you cant start a blog get a bunch of comments and then stop posting. Get your game on and starts posting, or your blog will vanish in the blog sphere.....
Yanky:
Thanks for the encouragement...
I do plan on posting again at my nearest convenience, but I have been extremely overwhelmed with school work and personal matters over the past week.
Barring any unforseen difficulties/obstacles, I should definitely have another post up within the next 10 days. (preferably sooner than later)
Thanks for visiting and commenting!
-TUYG
looks like I am the last to find this blog. Welcome and when are you going to start writing? waiting for your next idea. I feel the same pain with the frum community. Eevryone here seems to feel the same way.
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Yet another ex-Yeshiva "misfit" checking in to wish you luck with your blog. I've been blogging about yeshivos (and other subjects) for over a year now and found that there is a "market" for reasonable, well-written, from-the-heart bloggers who sincerely believe that our communities can be improved with more tolerance for those who don't "fit the mold."
The Wolf
no more posts>?
Frumm and jewish:
Welcome to my blog!
Frum: Welcome! I have been real busy lately, but do plan on posting again sometime in the near future, IMY"H...
-stay tuned-
-TUYG
Almost a month-no new posts. RIP.
The important thing is that you know you are frum and doesn't matter what others think. The importance is in your heart and not your shirt color.
Social Worker/Frustrated Mom:
Welcome to my blog!
I couldn't agree with you more completely!
-TUYG
NU?
What's going on with you now?
And you never come and visit.
Sniff.
Hey Kasamba!
Long time no chat!
When I formed this blog, my initial intent was to post regularly. However, I have been extremely busy as of late, and may not be able to get myself back in sync until the begining of the fall semester (mid-late August).
I do feel like I have some decent blog material up my sleeve, and hope to eventually post it all on a regular basis, BE"H.
Until then, please continue to stay tuned!
Thanks for the encouragement!
-TUYG
People are sometimes judged by the clothes they wear whether or not they they are what they look like. A man can dress chassidish and act quite modern and not very frum, or a person can dress "modern" ie: colored shirt, and be frummer than the chosid. However I still think that since clothes project a certain image, then one dress in the image he wants to represent. If someone wants to look Yeshivish, because he wants people to know he is, then he should wear a white shirt (and a hat). If he wants others to think he is more "modern" then he can wear a colored shirt.
ok, now your going to hate me for this comment...but i really want to set you up with my (former) teacher....
hehe.
Anonymous:
Very cute!
LOL!
As a Brooklyn/Lakewood native, I should only be concerned with her meeting 2 important criteria before I agree to meet her:
1) Does she have money?
2) Does she have good looks?
:P :)
-TUYG
Of course you agree, and glad. So where is the next post?
We are all eagerly awaiting your next (erudite)post.
Hatzlachah in your graduate studies!
Dude I am new to this. But I am right there with you. My blog actually puts some humor to my whole situation. www.frumsatire.wordpress.com
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Two months, no new posts. What a disappointment.
tfjbjxWant to learn Torah ? Thousands of chiourim here : www.torah-box.com
Yasher Koach and Chazak U'Baruch!!
Please check out the new blog.
independentfrumthinker.blogspot.com
i went through exactly what you described.you can spend your whole life trying to be accepted by them,but if you know inside you are doing the right thing that is the most important thing.the worst thing in life is to fool yourself,atleast you know what you are.If you believe, (i do), that you are serving god to the best of yor ability,why do you feel the need to prove yourself to every one? GOOD LUCK!!!
p.s. dont channel your energy against - but channel your energy FOR things...
Hi there. Just a short comment. For me, the hardest challenge in the Yeshiva world is maintaining sincerity, a non-cynical attitude, and a focus on my lifegoal- to constantly strive for truth and a relationship with G-d. Indeed, it would be so easy to look round, see all the small-minded obnoxious superficiality in the yeshivisha velt and excuse myself from a spiritual life, or become MO. However, deep in my heart I know that the Torah demands an uncompromising Judaism, and if the practitioners of that Judaism have fallen into triviality, it does not excuse me from focusing on my responsibilities and constantly striving for perfection in life/Judaism.
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Hey man, are you still blogging? We have a Facebook writers group for ex-yeshiva guys and would love if you can join. It's called Yeshiva Fiction Writers. Check it out and request access if you're interested!
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